Tagged: friend zone
olyshowParticipantJune 17, 2015 at 12:41 am #3652
On May 30, I met this girl, Francisca, for the third time. She’s adopted from Peru, she grow up in Canada and she would like to go back to Peru like I did (I’m adopted from Peru too). Long story short, at the end of the night I was going to kiss her in the car and she told me that she was dating this other guy and it was serious. She told me she only had 1 boyfriend in her life (she’s 25) and she always had difficulty to have friendship with boys. She want it to stay friend and she seem really sincere. She literally told me that we had a “bad communication” on that point. So I tell her that we should wait after the summer to talk to each other. I analyze the situation and I notice that I was not too much a challenge for her.
Now, I wonder if I should really wait after the summer or could I contact her before?AlexParticipantJune 18, 2015 at 7:05 pm #3654
I bet Chris has better ideas. From my perspective you have to imagine her and say to her “I will be happy with you or without you” and keep working on yourself. You have all summer, so here are some goals: go to a gym, create your style, live active and fun life, hang out with cool people, and the most important hang out with girls which are hotter than she is.
In 3 months after you accidentally invite her for some of your events she will see a cool guy which is not starving from lack of beautiful women and she will ask yourself why I couldn’t make him that much happy.. or is there smth with him that I couldn’t see..
Good luck!olyshowParticipantJune 22, 2015 at 12:06 am #3662
Thanks for the advice ! I will work on this for sure.Christopher LunaModeratorJune 24, 2015 at 8:42 am #3671
Hi Olyshow! Great practical advice Alex. Alex was a former Dating Mastery Student, who became pretty good at this stuff. He has some wonderful insights. His advice above is solid. As for me, my response is going to be a bit harsh, but I believe understanding helps in the long run. Hopefully it will give you clarity, and get you on the right track. So, let me break downs what’s happening here…
When is comes to dating and relationship, women will usually tell you want they want, if you listen. In this case, she’s told you both where she’s at emotionally and want she wants from you. To this end, she’s dating someone else, and she only wants to be friends. You’re not going to logically convince her that she should want to be intimate (or date) you. And you definitely can’t force her to do so. Right now, she doesn’t see you as a potential romantic partner. She made that very clear. And as she told you, she’s had this problem before with other men. This is a common problem for a lot of women. They get pursued romantically by men whom they have no (or little) sexual interest in.
As an experiment, ask an attractive unmarried women, “Do you have male friends?” Most will respond, “Yes”. Then ask, “Do you think any of your closest male friends would have sex with you if you let them?” Most will say “all” or “just about all”.
So that leads us to what I suggest that you should do next. To understand this, you’ll first have to figure out the root problem. Basically you need to understand, “Why doesn’t she see me as a potential romantic partner?” This can be tricky. Sometimes men will try to get a woman to answer this question, almost as if they’re hoping for a performance review, so they can make adjustments, and then take another crack at dating her.
If a man asks a woman why she doesn’t see him a romantic partner, her response will often be vague. There are a couple “most likely” reasons for this. One reason, is that she might not know the answer. In this situation, she’ll often say something like, “I just don’t feel the spark” or “We don’t have the chemistry I’ve felt with other men,” or even, “I feel like we would make better friends”. Hearing these types of responses can be confusing for a man who has strong feelings for a women. The last example, “I feel like we would make better friends” can be the most perplexing. Especially since most experts (and couples in healthy longterm relationships) say that your partner should be your (or is their) best-friend.
Another major reason that women are often vague in these explanations is that they don’t want to hurt the guy’s feelings. And that makes sense on a lot of levels. Sometimes a woman is trying to be empathetic because she’s sensitive to the man’s feelings, and sensitive to rejection. Maybe she’s experienced rejection herself, or has a close male friend or family member who has been hurt by female rejection. Regardless of the reason, here a woman is showing that she is both aware and sensitive to the feelings of others. The vagueness in her response, is a form of letting a man down easy. In these situation she may like, respect, or even care about the man who is attempting to pursue a relationship with her, even though she doesn’t have romantic feelings towards him.
In other situations, a woman might be protecting herself. Imagine being alone is a car with a man who was bigger and stronger than you, who wants something from you, and you have to say no to him. To heighten the stakes, imagine that what he wants is YOU. Navigating these situations can be a tricky. A woman has to say “No” from a position in which her circumstance makes her quite vulnerable. In these types of circumstances, it’s hard to blame a woman for being vague, or even lying.
So let’s move this back to you. Again, you need to diagnose the problem, “Why doesn’t she see me as a potential romantic partner?” Even though you know that she probably isn’t going to tell you the reasons, even if she could articulate what that (or those) reason(s) are.
I want to quickly say something about human nature. When we fail, humans instinctively try to figure out, “What went wrong?” Our ability to solve for this question, is one of the most important factors in our success and survival as a species. And yet, when it pertains to women and love, this tendency can be maddening. As a consolation, the motivation to understand and fix what went wrong, has led to some of the greatest music and art in human history.
In your case, you’re mind has already gone into overdrive attempting to solve this dilemma. Your conclusion was that you weren’t “too much of a challenge for her.” But that’s a misdiagnosis of the problem. Let’s take a moment to consider the challenges that you take on in the different areas of your life. If you’re honest with yourself, you’ll find that most are either born from necessity. As an example, I take on the challenge of securing a warm place to sleep or food to eat because I need to survive. Or out of desire. I want the promotion, so I challenge myself to put in the extra hours and effort. In the second example, a person makes sacrifices and takes specific tradeoffs to get what they want. When it comes to love and courtship within a free society, if a person decides to take on a challenge, it must be rooted in desire.
Test this idea, by using yourself as an example. Take a moment to ask yourself, “When was the last time that I was willing to take on a challenge to win a woman that I wasn’t attracted to?” My assumption is that at least part of your motivation to pursue this girl is based upon your physical attraction to her. And I’ll also assume that you don’t generally pursue women that you’re not physically attracted to. The exception being a woman has something else that you want. In which case, by definition, you’re still attracted to her. That’s because attraction is based upon a perception of value. When a person perceives something as being valuable, then they’re drawn to it. It doesn’t matter what that something is. If she didn’t have anything that you wanted, then her pursuit would be a waste of your time and energy. Again, why would anyone ever go after anything that they didn’t think would benefit them? I guess a person could argue something like ego, but the validation of a person’s ego is still a benefit. My point here is that being a challenge to a woman who doesn’t see you as a potential sexual partner, won’t make her want you more.
Let me be clear, if a woman desires a man, then being a challenge for her can be an incredibly effective courtship strategy. Many argue this point and cite both that “We want what we can not have” and that “The fear of loss is stronger than the prospect of gain.” And although there are truths in these statements, the answer to this problem, at least from from my perspective, is simpler than these cliches. In fact, it’s basic economics. If two, or more, people want the same thing, then each person is likely to take a bigger risk to get what they want. In economics terms, if supply is constant, and demand increases, then perceived value (price) will also increase. There are two scenarios in which you’re most likely to experience this phenomena. The first, is any situation in which you find yourself in competition with another man for the same women. This scenario will alter your emotions, and in turn your behavior as you pursue her. The second, is any situation in which you find that two or more women are competing for you, your body, and your attention (hopefully not your economic resources). In this scenario, you’ll notice a change in the women’s behavior as they pursue you. Most women are willing to do more to secure a man, when they’re in competition with other women for him.
If you’re a man who is looking for a committed relationship, but you’re dating a woman who is dating other men, creating a perception that you’re “in demand” can be an incredibly valuable tool. This is because competition both increases perceived value (attraction) and can trigger jealousy. And often, it isn’t until after person has experienced jealousy, that they realize how valuable a person is to them. Remember, when we choose to get into a committed relationship we are making a conscious trade-off. If both partners are faithful, they are choosing to give up specific freedoms, in return for psychological, emotional, and sometimes financial, security. Hopefully, I’ll have the opportunity to talk more about this is a future article or response.
There is a one more economic scenario in which being a challenge for a woman can increase perceived value. And that’s when demand is constant, and supply decreases. In layman terms, this is when one person romantically desires another person, and the person that they desire pulls away. For any man who has had this happen to them, they know that this experience can be incredibly painful, and even traumatizing. In fact, it was this type of experience that drove me to learn about dating and relationships, and later became the catalyst for my career as a dating coach.
This is a great segue into where things went wrong for you with this girl. If you want to change the type of relationship that you have with a woman, in your case you’re attempting to move a friend into an intimate or sexual partner, then you have to change the way that she feels around you. At Craft of Charisma, in both the bootcamps and Dating Mastery Program, and especially in our private coaching, we talk about three essential emotions that a woman must feel if a man wants her to think about him as a romantic partner. These include: Attraction, Comfort, and Sexual Tension / Desire.
Let’s quickly examine where you are at with each: First, you know that you have some attraction. And when I write attraction, I’m referring to the fact that she perceives you as having some form of value to her. Otherwise she wouldn’t respond to your calls, texts, or agree to meet up with you. Let me be clear, attraction often isn’t sexual. And in this case, I’m not implying that the attraction is sexual in anyway. Only she knows why she values you. As men, all we can do is attempt to nurture this emotion, test, and then leverage it (I plan to talk more about this in a future post). Second, you also know that she feels some level of comfort when she’s around you, otherwise she wouldn’t have allowed herself to voluntarily be alone with you. I need to be careful here. I’m assuming that she was with you voluntarily. And I’ve learned that I should never make assumptions. Finally, you know that you don’t have sexual tension / desire, because she told you.
These facts tell us where you’re at. Now you have to make a choice about what you want to do next. Essentially, you have two options: Option #1 – Cut bait, learn from this experience, and move on, or Option #2 – Continue to pursue her.
I’m not going to tell you what to do. If you choose Option #1 – Cut bait, learn from this experience, and move on, I recommend that you diary the experience. You’re welcome to do so in the diary section of the Craft of Charisma forums. Later, it will be helpful to revert back to see how you’ve grown as well as patterns that might be harming your relationships. For the most part, if you find that you continue to get stuck in similar situations, seek help, and then focus your time, energy, and money, on getting unstuck.
Also, it you go the route of cutting bait, make the cut clean, and move on quickly. I recommend that you begin dating new women right away. The quickest way to get yourself to a new place (physically or emotionally) is to start taking immediate steps (and to consistently take them) in a new direction.
In the event that you choose Option #2 and you continue to pursue her, as I said before, you’re going to have to change the way that she feels about you. To accomplish this, you’ll need to lead her to a place emotionally where she starts to think about you as a potential romantic partner. This change of feeling, is the only way to change a relationship type. For her, this will not be a logical process. So don’t try to change her feelings about you by attempting to convince her that you both have similar backgrounds, unique commonalities, or by discussing the advantages that you have over another guy. Instead, you’re going to have to become the type of man that she desires on a primitive level.
This can be a tricky task, because early in courtship, most women will lose sexual attraction (and respect) for a man who goes out of his way to accommodate her needs. It’s important to understand that within every group of people, a hierarchy naturally develops. Generally, when a person exhibits accommodating behavior it communicates lower social status within that group. That’s because, the accommodating or reactionary member(s) of a group (or hierarchy) are usually the beta, gamma, delta or worst, seeking the validation of (in an attempt to secure their subordinate place within the hierarchy, and to seek and solidifying alignment with) the alpha group member, also known as the group leader. Let me be clear, that’s not what I’m suggesting you do. Instead, you’ll need to focus on yourself, and on becoming a better man. On defining and executing a vision for yourself, on learning how to both lead people, a relationship, on how to take a women through courtship, and on improving the quality of your tribe. As you go through this process of self-development, it will increase the way that she perceives your social status relative to hers, alter your behavior, and make you more desirable. In the most basic terms, you have to become a man that she wants to follow.
At Craft of Charisma, when we’re doing this work we often say that it’s that mass of the sun that keeps the planets in orbit. In this example, you are the sun, and she is a planet. The mass of your personality, lifestyle, tribe, and character, will keep her in orbit.
Two other important warnings. First, if you decide to change the way you’re interacting with her, these changes are going to need to be gradual. Your relationship with this girl has been built on a set of predictable behaviors. If these predictable behaviors change too suddenly, it’s going to shock her, and it’s likely that she will pull away. That’s why Alex’s suggestion for a 3 month break, while you focus on yourself, is an excellent idea. We “all” expect people to change over time. And if we don’t see a person for while, we expect the change to be more extreme. Second, for a variety of reasons, if you make the necessary changes so that she sees you as a romantic partner, there is still no guaranteed that you’ll win the girl. Sometimes, success is a matter of great timing and a bit of luck. By the time you get yourself together, she may have moved on with her life (moved to a new city, new job with no free time, be in a committed relationship, and so forth). Even if things don’t work out, any improvements that you make to yourself and your life are preparation for the next girl.
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