- EvanParticipantAugust 22, 2014 at 10:09 pm #2433
So, as I progress in this journey I’ve gotten a few numbers, but I’ve stifled almost all of them in texting.
My general texting heuristic thus far has been something I read on reddit which is “Great men don’t waste time with inane messages”. E.g. maybe a small bit of small talk, but then quickly trying to set up a date – but actually, looking through the first one again, I think I did quite a bit of small talk.
I’m going to post my last two text conversations here (they’re not that long).
Here’s the first. It took place on a Sunday. I met the girl late the night before. We danced for a bit and even kissed before I took her (Samantha) number. Here’s the conversation (i was also trying to convey high energy through the texting)
352 AM (sat night, after getting the number)- E: Hey its evan.
450 PM (sunday, next day) – S: Hey! Sorry for the late response
615 PM – E: Hey Samantha!! It was fun meeting you last night! How’s your sunday going?
616 PM – S: Just watching TV and cleaning you?
618 PM – E: Nice! Lazy Sundays are great.
620 PM – E: I woke up really late and then went to Jersey city to eat brunch with my brother and see his new dog.
620 PM – S: Oh fun. What breed?
622 PM – E: Hes a taco terrier-half chihuahua and half terrier.
623 PM – E: He’s really cute, tiny and he sort of squeaks when he barks : ).
626 PM – E: It reminded me of my dog at home in wisconsin… – have you had any pets?
628 PM – S: Haha that does sound cute. No I tried to talk my parents into getting a dog but they don’t want one lol
637 PM – E: Haha. Mine didn’t either at first. But my younger siblings are really persistent. I think now he’s everyones favorite family member.
639 PM – E: Anyway, what’s this week like for you?
(no response for a few hours)
1101 PM – S: Lucky lol. I’m just doing apartment stuff this week cause I’m moving soon. You?
1037 AM – E: Oh Awesome! Where are you moving to?
1038 AM – S: Chelsea
1047 AM – E: Oh nice. That’s a really great neighborhood – right by the west village.
1050 AM – E: I actually have a really busy work week. Lets meet up for a drink though! I could make time Tuesday or Thursday night.
… No response : /
I’m wondering if I didn’t build enough comfort here. Since we just met in a bar the night before and actually didn’t talk that much, she knows very little about me here (doesn’t know if I have a job etc… ) maybe I should have introduced more serious in conversation? Also, it took her 4 hours to respond to “what’s this week like for you”. Maybe that was a clue that there wasn’t enough comfort built up (I think there was attraction since we dancing and kissing the night before). Although, what’s more comfort inducing than puppy dogs… : ).
Ok – next conversation. This went down this week. The context is I approached this girl at union square. We had a fairly long chat actually (like > 20 minutes or so) and told her there I was going to ask her out for a drink and she seemed like she wanted to do that. (Her name was strangely also samantha, not the same person though)…
Sat 820 PM (right after getting number) – E: Hey its Evan!
710 PM – E: Hey Samantha how’s your sunday going?
711 PM – S2: Pretty hectic at work all day. Tired. Just got out. Yourself?
725 PM – E: It was really awesome. Hectic in a good way. I was at a cousin’s wedding in long island and am heading to manhattan in a bit for a going away dinner for a friend.
726 PM – S2: Both those things sound fun!!
728 PM – E: Yeah. What’s your schedule like this week?
…no response – argh : /
I think my last text here made it seem like I was too eager to get her out quickly (the Yeah part not addressing what she had said). Maybe we should have texted a bit more — honestly, I was about to leave my house and wasn’t trying to have a whole conversation.
What do you guys think? Are there any good texting principles you follow? Also, do you ever double text a girl who doesn’t respond – try to save it?
I know it’s a valid possibility these were both ruined in the initial interaction itself – but i was thinking if they didn’t want to go on a date, they wouldn’t have responded to my initial text…PeterParticipantAugust 23, 2014 at 2:11 pm #2435
I’ve been having the same issues! I was just thinking this the other day, when girls go silent, imagine how easy life would be if they simply told us what we’re doing wrong. I’m not a texting expert but I’ll give you my opinion.
In the first interaction, your last comment:
1050 AM – E: I actually have a really busy work week. Lets meet up for a drink though! I could make time Tuesday or Thursday night.
To me it might come across as needy, like you’re telling her you’ll make time for her. So she now knows you’re willing to drop things for her.
In your second interaction, your last comment:
728 PM – E: Yeah. What’s your schedule like this week?
It’s too open, like I wouldn’t even tell my mom my schedule for the whole week. Just be specific, like hey you free 15 minutes Tuesday night around 6?
Here’s a conversation I had with a girl who’s number I got from Brass Monkey 2 weeks ago when Hector took us. In my field report I said how I thought the girl would flake because she took forever to respond, but we ended up getting together last Saturday.
Wed, 7:20 PM – Me: Hey julianne, it’s pete from brass monkey saturday, how are ya?
[Notice long gap, felt she was flaking]
Thu, 5:58 PM – Her: Hello. I’m fine thanks how are you going?
[I didn’t respond right away because I thought she was a flake, but I used the strong emotions Chris told us to do]
Thu, 6:48 PM – Me: Stupendous! Just got out of work
[I was about to delete her number, but figured I’d do a hail mary]
Fri, 2:01 PM – Me: What are you doing tomorrow?
Fri, 2:05 PM – Her: Tomorrow I actually have to go to a party my boss is throwing.
Fri, 2:07 PM – Me: But what are you doing during the day? How far are u from central park? Its supposed to be super nice tomorrow
Fri, 2:08 PM – Her: I’m not too far. Why?
Fri, 2:08 PM – Her: I’m going to be leaving the city around 3pm to head to this party
Fri, 2:18 PM – Me: I want to go to central park, lets do a picnic at noon.
Fri, 2:18 PM – Me: Should give us plenty of time before u have to leave
Fri, 2:22 PM – Her: Ok, sure. Sounds good.
[Then we just setup where to meet and stuff]
I usually do all this beat-around-the-bush stuff where we talk small talk and stuff and then after 357 texts setup a date, but I was proud of this one I just setup a meeting time in a few texts. I normally would have taken a safer route but doing the small talk, but I figured she was flaky anyway so I’d do a hail mary.
Also, don’t give up on those 2 girls that you think you messed up texting. I saw that girl you were talking to Saturday during the day, she seemed into you. Just try again and shoot for a quick coffee or something. I find the less you say, the less chance you have at screwing up.Christopher LunaModeratorSeptember 4, 2014 at 6:30 pm #2497
Okay men, don’t over think this.
If one or two girls don’t text you back, don’t pick yourself apart. If three out of four girls don’t text you back, and you see a pattern developing, there are some things that you could be doing better. Let me share with you some insights the come from a lot of experience.
1. First Interactions
During the first interaction you should focus on creating an emotional connection, making plans to hang out again, and exchanging contact information.
Here is a conversational example of how to get a phone number:
You: You’re pretty cool, we should grab a drink sometime?
Her: Sounds fun.
You: Cool, what’s your number?
Then, pull out your phone and assume that she’s going to give you her number. She’ll instinctively give you her number because it’s assumed that you’ll need it because you’ve just made plans with her.
Then program her cell number in your phone. Another option is to hand her your phone and let her input the details. If you don’t know her name, or how to spell her name, this can be a bit smoother.
After you have her number in your phone, call her to verify that it’s the correct number.
Next, make sure that you program your name and number into her phone. People are usually more likely to answer a call from a number, or name, they recognize.
This can also be a great opportunity to add some humor. For example, I might add a silly note in her phone like, “The man of my dreams. Met at ABC bar. Looked dashing in blue shirt.”
This might seem silly, but what you’re really trying to do is to make things easy for her. Attractive women are asked by men to exchange phone numbers frequently. The average person can only remember about 100-230 names consistently. Beyond this, they begin to mix people up, forget about others, and need tools help recall names. Don’t take this personally, it’s part of dating and life. See dunbar’s number.
As a side, thinking about seduction in these terms is fascinating. Out of the tens of thousands of people she’s met through the course of her life, when you’re successful, you’ll not only navigate your way into this group of 100-230 people who she can immediately recall their name, but you’ll navigate into one of the 1-5 people that she considers to be her most trusted inner circle.
On your end, if you get a lot of phone numbers, you’ll quickly begin forgetting names too. To help with this, use the notes field in your phone. For example, “Sarah, blue eyes, works in HR for ABC Company. Has one brother. Just got back from Milan. Loves yoga and eastern art. Wore black dress.”
You can also take her picture, and program it into your phone. If you do so, tell her that you’re going to take her picture. As a general rule, you want to tell people where you’re going to take them, before you do so. Both physically and emotionally. This is a foundational skill of a good leader. And a major part of being effective at dating is learning to lead: first yourself, then another person, your relationship with them, and eventually a family. In addition, this process builds trust.
To make this fun, you can say something like, “I’m going to take your picture, let me see your most seductive stare,” then take her picture. I like to mess around, so in the event she took the request seriously, and made a seductive stare, I would probably tease her after and tell her that it needed work, but that we could work on it together.
You could go in another direction, and say something like, I have a serious question, “Can you see the tip of your nose?” or “Can you curl your tongue?” or something that would cause her to make a funny face, and then take her picture when she tries to do whatever you asked her to do. She’ll get frustrated and often want you to delete the funny photo. Then tell her you’ll take another picture and replace the one you just took after you meetup for whatever it is that you agreed to do.
If you take this approach, make sure that it’s playful. This shouldn’t come off as blackmail, it’s a silly game that should feel fun for both out you. You’re teasing her. I shouldn’t need to say this, but don’t use a bad photo to exploit her by publishing the picture on the internet or by sending it to all of your friends. As a man, you’ll discover that the women you date will often be vulnerable to you, and that you’ll often be in a position of power within the relationship. This power dynamics is important to creating attraction. And yet, with power comes responsibility. This might seem trivial to someone reading this, but exploiting this power dynamic erodes trust and can fuck a person up. Hopefully I’ll get a chance to talk more about it in a future post or article.
If she really does gets upset, just delete the photo. If a woman gets angry over this (or something like this) it’s often driven by a traumatic experience that evolved to a deep-seated insecurity or anxiety. In either case, it’s a red flag that she’s probably not in a healthy emotional place. This doesn’t mean that she’s a bad person, but it does mean that if you date her she’s likely to make your life miserable, as her problems will become your problems. This happens in every relationship, but some problems are worst than others. The point is that when you’re dating it’s important to be-aware of warning signs that she is off. When a man is around a woman that he’s attracted to, he’ll often ignore these signs, and then he’ll regret it later.
A third option is to be inclusive and say something like, “Get over here, let’s take a picture.” Then take a picture with her. The photo could be normal, silly, or something else. If it’s silly, for example you’re both making funny faces, then it’s probably safe to share the photo and tag her through social media. I would mention that I’m going to share it and tag her first, and see how she reacts.
One last suggestion is to add her on Linkedin, Facebook or Twitter. I’ll discuss this in more detail in another article or post.
2. After you get the phone number
After we exchange phone number, I’ll usually continue to talk to her and hang out with her as long as it’s appropriate. Remember the goal isn’t to get her phone number, it’s to see her again and continue the relationship. The phone number is just a bridge from this moment, until the next time you see her again.
As we continue to hangout, we might even begin making plans to do other things together. For example, we might make plans to check out a museum, layout in the park, read and talk about a book, share each others writing, art, music or other passions.
The more plans the better. Again, talking about the future moves the interaction from one moment of time, into the future. It also creates emotional investment, and the more someone invests in something, the more they tend to value it. And it’s the perception of value that is the basis of attraction.
As a side, tentative plans tend to work better than specific plans. Here is an example of a typical conversation that would lead to tentative plans:
Me: You’re pretty cool, we should grab a drink sometime?
Her: Sounds fun.
Me: Cool, what’s your number?
(Exchange phone numbers).
Me: Maybe Thursday, are you going to be around?
Her: I should be. I work until around 5pm.
Me: Where do you work?
Me: Hmmm. Do drink wine?
Me. There is a cool wine-bar off Mulberry. Actually, I have a few ideas. I’ll text you, and we can figure this out.
Her: Sounds good.
Again, notice how I made general plans in the example, which gives me a context to follow-up, yet still moves the interaction into a moment in the future.
3. Separation and first text.
Eventually, you’re going to have to separate. It’s at this point that I’ll usually text a girl for the first time. This first text usually looks something like this:
Me: Hi Sarah! It was nice to meet you ; )
Her: It was great to meet you too.
Me: I’ll call you Tuesday about grabbing that drink next week.
Her: Sounds Great!
The follow-up is about building trust. I text her when I say I will. I call her when I say I will. I show up where I say I will. I want to be predictable. I call this getting to normal. And here is why: Think about the people that you’re closest to. Maybe it’s your siblings, best friends, parents, etc. When they call, you don’t spend much time thinking about what you’re going to say and whether you’re going to answer their calls, instead, you answer when you can, and when you can’t, you call them back, or they call you back. No one takes anything personally, unless one party ignores the calls from the other party for an extended period of time, at which point the ignored party begins to feel something might be wrong, and if this is a new pattern of behavior, then usually there is something wrong. At this point the trust begins to degrade. But as long as the general pattern of response stays the same, everything works and no one really questions it. That’s the type of trust, and response, that you’re trying to create when you meet someone new that you want to have a relationship with.
We use to have a Craft of Charisma coach (he started as a student in the first Dating Mastery Program) who would make the first phone call while he was still talking to the girl. A few minutes after he exchanged phone numbers with a girl he would discreetly call her while he was still engaged in the conversation with her. Not wanting to be rude, she would usually ignore the call, and he would insist that she answer it. Then when she answered it, he would put his phone to his hear and say, “I just wanted to get that first awkward phone call out of the way.” At this point the girl would laugh, and they would both hang up and continue the conversation. But what he did was smart, he was trying to get her in the habit of answering his calls. Statistically, a girl who answers your calls 60 times, is more likely to answer it the 61st. And this logic can be carried back to answering your calls even once (this logic can also be carried over to sex, but that’s another conversation).
As a side, women will complain that men never call anymore, and instead text. In reality, they are more likely to respond to text because it takes less investment, and has evolved into the most common form of communication (at least within developed nations) for setting up logistics to meet a person.
There is a lot of content written about how to build attraction and comfort through text messaging. In reality, if you’re in a situation where you need to build more attraction or comfort through text messaging to get a girl to see or respond to you, then more often than not, she’s not going to meet up with you.
Building attraction, creating comfort, and sexual tension, are all components of building an emotional connection. If you meet a girl, and she’s not responding to your text messages, it’s almost guaranteed that you didn’t build a strong enough emotional connection with her. The time to focus on creating this connection is when you’re with her, when you can stimulate her 5 senses: sight, sound, touch, smell, & taste; usually in that order.
One question that frequently comes up is, “How long should should I wait to text her.” Generally, the sooner the better. Normally I send a first text within half an hour after I separate from her. But that also depends upon the circumstances. If it’s super late (the bars in New York close at 4am) I may send something in the morning. I once picked up a girl on a date while she was coming out of the bathroom. I thought she was on a date, and when I asked she confirmed. In that case, I sent her a text the next day, because I didn’t want to create a situation with her date that was awkward for her. And we did end up meeting up. My point is that it’s important to be aware of her circumstances.
4. First call
If I say that I’m going to call Thursday, then I call Thursday. And if she doesn’t answer, then I leave a message. Usually the message is something like:
“Hi it’s Chris, we met at ABC bar! I wanted to see if you still want to grab a drink on Thursday. Give me a call back when you get a chance.
For clarification, it’s a common practice to use text or messaging (without a call) to set up the date or meetup. But again, my focus is on two things: First, setting up the meetup. And second, getting her acclimated to communicating with me in the same way that she communicates with the people whom she is closest.
Your first phone conversation with a girl (whether she answers your call or calls you back) may contain small talk, a recap of your first meeting, an in-depth conversation, or something else, regardless, part of the conversation should focus on the next time that you’re going to meet. This includes the circumstances: 1. Where and when are you going to meet? and 2. Who is going to be there?
As a man, you should have a plan for what you’re going to do. Normally, if I go on a first date I’ll pick a place that’s in public (so she feels comfortable) and in a location that’s close to my place (to make things easier in the event things go well). Again, plan for success. Part of leadership is having an idea of where you’re going next. The last thing you want to do is have things go well and burden her with these problems, so solve them.
Another thing I’ll do, is propose two options, and then give her the choice. Choices are empowering. Normally she’ll pick one of the two choices, or in certain situations she’ll propose a third. In the event that she tells me to make a choice, then I’ll make the choice for both of us. Making choices is part of being a leader. And if a woman asks you to make a choice for her, then make the choice. This means that she trusts you to lead her, and that she’s willing to follow you. This is a great place to be in.
In addition, I’ll usually tell a girl what I’m going to wear or I’ll give her guidelines on how to dress. Again, my goal is to make things easy for her.
5. Confirming the date
The day of the date, I’ll usually receive a message from the girl to confirm that we’re still on for whatever it is that we’ve agreed to do. If we’re meeting early in the morning, then I’ll usually receive the message the night before. If I don’t, I’ll go ahead and send her something like:
Me: How’s your day going?
Her: Good. And yours?
Me: Busy, but full of great things : )
Me: I wanted to check in, are we still on for tonight at 5:30?
Her: Yes, I’m looking forward to it.
Me: Me too. I’ll see tonight!
From here, things usually go smoothly. That’s because I began moving the relationship in this direction from the moment I first met her.
6. General questions that come up
How many times should I contact a girl if she doesn’t respond?
That depends upon the situation and the girl. Normally, I would say 3, and then move on. A lot of guys don’t realize that a girl won’t answer a guy’s calls both because she’s not interested, as well as because she’s so interested that he makes her nervous. Contact her at least 3 times before moving on. And space them out. For example call once every three or four days.
Honestly, early in a relationship a girl is much more likely to respond to your text messages than she is to answer a first call. Understanding this, if you find that you’re texting a lot and things aren’t going anywhere (meaning you’re having trouble securing a date) while you’re going back and forth through text, say something like, “I’m in the middle of something, can I call you in 10min?” She’ll usually say yes or no. If she says yes, call her in 10 minutes, and if she says no, text her, “When are you free to chat?” If she’s really engaged with you through text, you can usually get her on the phone, and figure out what’s holding up the situation ; )
How long should my text messages be?
About as long as hers. If her last 3 text messages consisted of one to two sentence responses, don’t respond to her with multiple paragraph responses to her texts. There should be certain balance in your text interactions, is the same way that there should be a balance of talking and listening in your conversations.
I know this has been a long response, but I want to distill these ideas down a bit. So, here is a quick cheat sheet for follow-up:
Step 1: First Interaction – Create an emotional connection, start making plans, and exchange contact information.
Step 2: Text or message – Reinitiated contact, and mention meeting up, and a possible call.
Step 3: Call (optional) – Talk about meeting up, and make plans more concrete by having a plan and giving options.
Step 4: Confirm – The day of or night before.
Notice that every time I interact with the girl through these examples, I’m attempting to move the relationship into a moment in the future.
Remember, if one girl doesn’t respond, don’t take it personally and don’t pick yourself apart. If women aren’t responded to you consistently, then it’s almost always because of one of these two reasons:
1. You’re not building a strong enough emotional connection with the women that you’re meeting (attraction, comfort, or sexual tension) in person.
2. You’re not focusing enough on making plans, meeting up again, and leading the women you meet through this process.
One last thing. In the example above, I used the example of getting a drink. In reality, I seldom drink, and almost never go for a drink on a date. I’m much more likely to go grab coffee, tea, walk in the park, attend a class, share a passion, or do something else. When it comes to setting up the date or meet up, think simple and outside the traditional dating box.
On my first date with my girlfriend we went to yoga, and then we went to breakfast in Williamsburg at Egg. On our second date, I rented a zip car to run errands and she came with me. On the way we bought and ate donuts from the donut plant. The point is, when I first start dating a girl it’s more hanging out than traditional dating. It’s more real and authentic. I prefer this because it gives both of us the opportunity to shed the formalities that often come with first and second dates. It’s also more effective. I’ll talk about this more on a future post.
Hopefully this helps. If you have questions, please ask!
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