EvanParticipantJuly 22, 2014 at 6:12 pm #2139
Ok Week 2.
Showed up early for the dating on tinder lecture – very useful. I’ve written a profile and have talked to a photographer friend of mine about getting him to take some better photo’s of me doing some cool stuff.
The main focus of the mastery class was on 1) conversational structure and 2) starting starting conversations with groups.
Basic outline of conversational structure is to
1) ask an open ended question
2) validate the response
3) share something
4) ask another question
As I begin to apply this this week, I’m begining to realize that I need to train myself to think of open ended questions – i’ve been in a habit for a while of going close ended.
Other principles for conversational content are to 1) start big with a broader idea and then get more specific, 2) remove non-extreme reactions from vocabularly – (e.g. that’s cool, that’s nice etc. – these don’t trigger emotional reaction), instead say amazing, incredible, awesome, extraordinary. A friend this morning asked me how my weekend was and I replied enthusiastically, “it was amazing”, and she literally replied “wow, i was not expecting that”. This definately helped me notice that I sometimes get into patterns of low energy. More generally, I often get stuck in my head, thinking more about stresses I have going on in the day then attending to conversations with others and being enthusiastically present… i think using extreme words, and making a strong point to express emotion helps me out of that.
We also did a thought bubble exercise to fill out life experiences we’ve had. Only filling out bubbles for school, work, hobbies, friends, and vacations, i realized I have enough content to probably speak for hours. I’m going to finish making this a bit more over the next few days, and try to add in to different sections cues to some different interesting stories so they’ll spring into mind when talking.
We next went over approaching groups. A good thing to do here is to engage the group with an open ended question. You want the question to lead into a topic that you can talk about, but also one that the average girl would find interesting. One that I came up with was (based mostly on a true story)
“Hi what do you guys think about relationships on facebook”
then, go around to each person in the group, validate what they say, and touch, while moving around the group
then, “I’m asking because I was with a friend today” (hector suggested adding in some words which would demonstrate value here -e.g. “at the gym w/ a friend from nyu”) “who was telling me about a girl he had been hooking up with. He likes her, but they’ve never discussed being in a relationship. Just a few days ago, however, she added on facebook that they were dating – what do you think about this?”
Then get the groups input.
I think it’s really important for me to slow down, relax, and move smoothly and deliberatly when I go through this.
A few more questions that I’m thinking about adding to repetoire:
“What do you think about beards?- talk about beard study I just saw which shows beards are more attractive in areas where there’s fewer beards and less attractive in an area w/ more beards”
“Would you ever move to a new city just because you wanted to live there (w/o havign a job?)” Talk about my friend who just moved to new york and how bold that is… etc.
“What do you think about guys paying for girls on first dates? – Talk about some girls I know who dismiss a guy if he doesn’t offer to pay, but others who I’ve talked to who would rather pay themselves.””
Ok, onto the infield. The infield started a bit rough. For what ever reason, I wasn’t totally in the right mood at first and it took a few interactions to get past that. I also found out during my first interaciton and talking to hector after that despite chewing gum earlier my breath was horrendus!!! I think this is something I’m susceptible to – especially if i’m a bit dehydrated. From now on I’m bringing a toothbrush and toothpaste w/ me to the bar so I can brush my teeth before – also, keeping hydrated and eating before class is clutch.
So, as stated, my first interaction was a little rough. It was two girls standing by a pole. I went in w/ the facebook opener. Partway through it though, it’s clear it’s not going great. I’m speaking too fast, and moving jittery and at one point I even pause and take a breath. The girls can tell i’m nervous and are actually quite friendly about this. I finish the introduction. We talk for a second, but then they excuse themselves to get a drink. I think my terrible breath (which I found out about talking to hector later) contributed to this : /. Review w/ hector- I chug alot of water, chew 3 pieces of gum – problem mostly solved.
From here I went down stairs w/ Hector and practiced the opener a few times – speaking slowly and touching. I realized that I’m not touching nearly enough. Also, initial touches do not need to be sustained. They can just be multiple taps. Something that I need to work on though is appropriatly timing touches with swaying in and out of personal space with what ever it is I’m saying. Focusing on all this was a real load on working memory going in, but I think this will be refined through more practice and experience.
I think I’ve hit a point where I can fairly reliably start a conversation. What is a bit more difficult is keeping the conversation going, remembering to touch and then isolating. We worked a bit more on strategies for isolating. After touching for a bit, and getting some indicators of interest, a bold move to do is to move move your hands down the girls arms and drag her a few feet while saying something like “I love your dress”. After some more interest, you can say something like “come with me, we’re going to find you a man”. I haven’t actually succeeded yet in doing this, but I think I’m close to pulling it off.
Another fairly regular occurance is girls asking to have their photograph taken. Here a good thing to do is to just say something like “the lighting here is terrible, lets move over here…” I pulled this off once and it worked fairly well for initiating a conversation.
One thing I noticed was that the opener works farily well at first, but then after getting through the story and getting some advice, I struggle a bit w/ where to go from there. One route was to talk about dating in general and how you know if you’re in a relationship vs. just hooking up. Another route is to talk about social media in general and over sharing. This sometimes went somewehre, sometimes devolved into (“so what do you guys do for work?”)
I actually think towards the end of the night I was having more success just going up to people and saying something like “hey, you look friendly, how’s your night going. or you look georgeous how’s your night going?” Although, I think this would be harder to pull off before I’m in a really high energy, social mood.
I’ll finish with the fairly high note that the night ended on. I don’t think I did anything particuarly better here than I had before in the night- I just think circumstances worked out better. After Chris left and Jimmy left, Peter and I hung around for a bit at the standard. Had a few nice conversations. The standard closes at 2, Peter heads back, I go to meet a friend in the east village. I wind up walking all the way to avenue A (no patience for waiting for cabs) to a place called Niagara. This place is pretty sloppy to say the least. I get a drink, go to this area that’s like 1/2 a dance floor, 1/2 people talking. While talking to my friend, a girl walks by, I stop her and say that I like her necklace, as how her night is going. It turns out it’s her birthday, we talk for a bit, she wants to get back to her friends. There are only two other girls in the room who are still there – one is really attractive. Not being w/ the coaches or anyone in class, I’m feeling less pressure to approach, but then tell my friend “one of us needs to so we don’t feel terrible about having not done it”. Since it turns out he’s fairly stoned, it’s on me to go in. I enter w/ high energy – say “are you guys with the birthday party?” – I think this gives me some cred/shows I’ve been talking to some other people, and maybe even have been accepted by someone in their group already. They are with the part. I talk about how their night is going. I’m talking more to the one i’m interested in and pulling her away from her friend (not literally, but just by slowly changing the angle that I’m speaking to her with). Since they’re w/ a party the friend doesn’t feel left out and instead of interrupting us actually leaves to go talk to some of her other friend (Isolation Success!). I’m touching quite a bit and she’s receptive. (aside as i write this – she’s not doing anything to indicate she’s very drunk, and i think i’m generally pretty good at noticing this). I’m also slowly half dancing. I definitely could have been smoother in how we started dancing, but, instead I just say something like “I love this D.J.” and that combined w/ the touching i’m doing leads to us dancing together. Dancing gets fairly physical – grinding etc. We kiss a few times. Things are going well. It’s very late at this point – like 3:40. I totally think I’m going to get laid. But around this point, last call/bar close calls start. One of her friends comes up to us, and says directly to me (“Sorry! we’ve got to go, i’m going to take her. – Girl says “it was nice meeting you” and heads out.) I go back to my friend with a “well i guess that happens” attitude. He asks if I got her number which I replied that I didn’t. He shames me a bit and says to go and get it – he’s right. The girls have left the bar – I run out after them. They’re still standing outside walking away. I just say to the girl “hey, you seem cool, i should have asked for your number” while handing my phone. She puts her number in. I text her back immediatly.
The next day around 4 I text. We have a short conversation about how the day was going. I ask her out for drinks to no reply… Perhaps I did this too early w/o building enough comfort (afterall at this point we had really not talked much at all – and everything we did talk about was pretty superficial). Or perhaps I seemed too eager.
Anyway, I’m pretty happy w/ progress that’s being made. I think the biggest things for me to work on are controlling energy/ making smoother, more natural touches timed with what i’m saying, keeping the conversation going w/ my openers, and controlling the content of what i say to things which make me look attractive.Christopher LunaModeratorJuly 26, 2014 at 1:34 pm #2155
I want to start with your comments on open-ended questions. Eventually you’ll create and use open-ended questions organically while in conversation. To become aware of them, we’re writing them out. So later you can consciously use them at will. I think you have some good ones here.
As you noted in your post, starting with subjects that women feel comfortable talking about will make communicating with women easier. For example, if you’re a computer programmer, comparing both the advantages and disadvantages of using two types of coding languages is probably a bad idea. You might get a little wiggle room on this if your with the right girl and your energy is awesome! Essentially, your passion has to be overwhelming. We’ve all experiences this. We meet someone and they’re so into whatever it is that they’re doing or talking about that we get drawn in. Their excitement literally becomes contagious. This will also work if you meet a girl who is just as geeked out about the same things that you are. We’ll make this is easy and just call this compatibility.
With all this said, starting with general topics around subjects that women talk about with their friends (because it’s a part of their everyday experience) will make starting that initial conversation with her a lot easier.
My best friend’s dad once gave me a tip, that I’ll never forget. He explained that, “If you to know what people think about, look what they read.” He was saying this out of frustration in regard to his teenage daughters, but he’s right! Go check out your book shelve, and you’ll get an incredibly accurate psychological profile of yourself. In our case, if you have no clue what the average woman thinks about because you don’t have much experience around them, go buy a Cosmo and look at the titles of the various sections: Sex and Relationships, Health and Fitness, Food and Cocktails, Beauty and Style, Celebrities and Entertainment, Politics (this is almost certainly different than the politics that you’ve been reading), College, and Career. I’m also going to throw travel on this list. And depending upon the girl: Art, books, music, mysticism, sports, movies, social media, and even startups.
Using these tools early in conversations casts a wider net, that will help you snag more fish until you can shift the conversation to what everyone really feels most comfortable talking about, themselves. At this point you can screen for compatibility. But even this is an art, because if you attempt to get too personal too fast, she’ll become self-conscious and shut down. We’ll talk more about this another time. I will say, that getting this timing down is magical. The secret to seduction is knowing when to push forward and pull back. It’s entirely about emotional intelligence.
Learning to use open-ended questions in conversation is a small change but has huge returns. One of the most important is that it takes the conversational burden off you, and places it on the other person, which will allow you the opportunity to listen and think about to what they’re saying, and respond naturally, as opposed to constantly moving into your head to think of something to talk about, or looking around the room for something to say, both of which cause a technical break in rapport (we’ll go more into this later in the Dating Mastery Program).
Beyond this, you mentioned in your post that when people ask you how your day is going, you’re beginning to mix up your responses with extreme words. I call these emotional catalysts.
Essentially, when someone asks you how your day is going, you should swap out words like: okay, fine, good, and anything you could say that would be negative, and instead respond with an emotional catalyst like, “Amazing! Incredible! Extraordinary!” or something that probably more extreme than what you would normally say. To make this work, you’re vocal tonality has to be excited as the word choice. And as you said, the first few times you do this, you might shock a few people. But you’ll also notice it will make the people you’re talking to happier, which will make you happier, and now you’ve begun the process of leading their emotions. Hopefully to a better place. This is incredibly important, because a woman is going to choose whether to call you back, see you again, have sex with you, date you, and a million other things based upon how she feels around you.
I could also teach you some diabolical methods for simulating this, for example, breaking someone down to build them back up, but honestly they’re unnecessary. And in the long run they create other problems. We’ll talk about this later in the class as we discuses setting up relationships.
Just remember, doing things that she wouldn’t expect, which will break her normal pattern, will have an impact on her emotions and make you memorable. Like google’s search algorithm, our brain has it’s own algorithm for organizing our experiences which it retrieves as memories. Part of the organization, prioritization, and retrieval of these memories involves both association and heightened emotional experience. If an experience has an abnormal impact on our emotions, it’s probably pretty important so, as humans, we stay aware of it. In this case, she’ll stay aware of you. If you master this skill, you’ll find most men are pretty pathetic competition when it’s most important, pursuing the woman that you really want.
Which brings me back to your openers. One of the conversation starters you developed was, “What do you think about guys paying for girls on first dates?” Just about every girl is going to say men should pay for dates. It’s the social norm. And since they were raised seeing the world through this lens, it’s going to be hard for them to do anything but agree with it. Instead, maybe you can switch it up. For example, ask, “What do you think about women paying for men on first dates?”
Here is a challenge, try using both 10 questions ten times each, keep a journal, and note which one get the bigger reaction. Good or bad, it almost doesn’t matter. Once you have a woman’s attention and you’ve gotten her to engage with you, then you can begin to lead her where you want her to go.
I’m going to stop here. I know that you have a lot more, but we’ll work though it. Great job, and see you at the next class!EvanParticipantJuly 27, 2014 at 10:22 pm #2197
I had more of a chance to digest your full response – there’s some really great advice here. I actually think I might go pick up an issue of cosmo and read it : ). At the very least, i might start to read more stuff in my free time that is more female friendly, or part of more general culture.
What do you think about how some conversation topics seem to more naturally lead to flirting than others?
For example, it seems talking about gossipy things naturally leads to a more playful conversation which is more open to playful touching than say talking about public high school educational programs for kids with disabilities (actual conversation I wound up on last night with a girl based on her profession). It’s a topic that I find interesting and I actually have strong feelings on. The girl had strong feelings on that too which on one hand is good because we were connecting, but on the other hand, it’s really hard to physically escalate when talking about how different state governments are screwing families by dropping funding for learning-disability programs.
Maybe the thing to do is to generally be ready to continually transition between more serious and more playful topics.
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